Gott Complex vs. Scenius

"...scenius is the intelligence of a whole… operation or group of people. And I think that’s a more useful way to think about culture, actually. I think that – let’s forget the idea of “genius” for a little while, let’s think about the whole ecology of ideas that give rise to good new thoughts and good new work."

Brian Eno

"I often hear people talking about looking at original art and saying, 'It's just great, there's no White-Out at all.' I find that an odd comment."

Dan Clowes

Blaise was part of a panel at the Stumptown Comics Fest called Young Lions. It wasn't very illuminating, but a question was asked of Barry Matthews and Leon Avelino of Secret Acres, about what kind of comics they were interested in publishing; they said that (and I'm paraphrasing) they were mainly looking for people who both wrote and drew their books entirely, that they weren't going for "team comics," meaning books with separate artists and writers. This evinced a bias that runs pretty deep in art-indie-alternative-whatever comics cirles - the creator as auteur.

It immediately made me want to collaborate on a book, to make something like Crumb and Pekar, Carver and Lish.



I think it's perceived that one of the strengths of comics is that they're the work of individual creators realizing their own singular visions. It's rooted, maybe, in the way cartoonists have signature styles and build organic worlds out of the language and imagery they choose.



Also on the panel was Theo Ellsworth who talked about how he'd like to make a physical artists' book and reproduce it exactly for the printed object. Is it better to be more authentic and hew closer to the original work or does the plasticity of print allow for new things to be created in the pre-press and printing stages? Is the printed object a representation of something else or the final work?



One of my favorite comics of all time is Panter's Jimbo: Adventures in Paradise, which was seemingly a patchwork affair, heavily edited by Spiegelman and Mouly. Spiegelman says:

"For everybody we published, we'd be pain in the ass. For Gary as well, encouraging a more specific narrative trajectory. For better or for worse, it was always fun to see how [people] ignored it. I remember putting together the Jimbo book, of the pages he had done for Slash, and adding more things into that where I'd say, "You know, there are twelve places where you just totally drop the continuity of an idea, maybe you'd wanna consider doing some pages to pull some of that back together." And then he'd do it, but while solving the problems that were specifically listed, he'd create fifteen other narrative disconnects in the course of the page, and I was like, "Well, maybe that's great." We were glad to see it. Part of the reason perhaps that I now tremble when I think of being a comics editor is that I'm kind of a busybody that way."



Jack Survives is something else that benefitted (I think) from Artie's meddling. The RAW version is much more graphic and readable than the McSweeney's book, which is more faithful to the original art.



Is it hubris on our part as cartoonists to want to be the hero, control the final product or should we recognize that art is a collaboration with reality, that the "ecology of talent" (as Eno calls it) can produce great work?

34 comments:

José-Luis said...

I'd love to see you doing some team-comics, Jason! I actually hope this comes back to see what could be formed. Sure, we have DC and Marvel team-ups that are always so scatterbrained and lame, but I'd love to have been working in the studios of Herge or Tezuka.

Blaise Larmee said...

this post is sweet

Jesse McManus said...

you bring up a lot of cool questions, jay over-boy.

let's see though, if i can tackle, even a smidgen of one, in responding.

maggots! though it's delay in release was formidable, it vibes me as a singular example of both artist book into graphic novel form (as theo e. yearned for, so you say).

eh, but what of vermilyea? john put a lot of sweat into that book, and ninja, as i understand, as "production designer" or some such thing. HENCE: team effort.

my reading of "multiforce" is influenced heavily by both the fort's web designer, and BJ's efforts as indesign maestro for print, but as much as brinkmans? need we parse potentials for praise? the work is the work.

so much is required, so many hands, to just get the paper onto one's desk. it should go without saying that we are not alone, despite any blood-flow to the auteur artery.

so it becomes about drawing, and about computers. do you enjoy laying things out? do you need help hatching your backgrounds? either you stop all that fucking hatching or you hire some dude named gerhard. i figure, we all find our own way. or we dont. sigh.

seeing the recent chippendale interview via our total rival, comicscomics, it's cool to see that he has his next book folded and organized like an actual book, during the drawing stage. you can see the same in the french chris ware interview on youtube, where he has a paste-up book to test the readability of rusty b.

the size of paper, the tools you use, the amount you shrink, expand or remain, have an effect on your psychology, and thusly, the psychology of the book.

which is why we need an entire blog devoted to the differences between non-photo blue and "size F" graphite. woof!

dylan sparkplug said...

When somebody asks to have input on a comic I've made, I tell them that they should make their own comic. It isn't a God complex. It is a "they want to make something else" complex.
I find that more editors and publisher are guilty of a God complex than artists are.

Jason Overby said...

Ninja's a great case in point, as are tons of books put together by Covey, Grano, Devlin. You don't have to collaborate on content, necessarily - you might just be collaborating on the final product. The books put out by Le Dernier Cri are amazing examples of design and recontextualization.

I love the strips in Multiforce but (the lone dissenter, I know) think the design stinks, that it inhibits my appreciation of the work, in a way that seeing it in Paper Rodeo didn't.

Occasionally stepping back and being able to get over yourself, seeing that you're not always a genius, and also that your inspirations come from somewhere, not being too precious with our "works of aht" can be helpful.

P.S. Check out Sean Christensen & Amy Kuttab's "Labanotation" that they drew together.

Frank Santoro said...

I was talking to a friend of a friend who likes "graphic novels". She said she really liked Jimmy Corrigan, David Boring. And that she liked Blankets but that she thinks she "outgrew it" and doesn't like it now. I asked her if she'd read Scott Pilgrim or Bottomless Belly Button. She hadn't. She said, "I need to read something new, haha."

I laughed and realized that I live in this dreamworld where I think most people in the world read comics or care about comics. And then thought about how few of my friends outside of comics read comics.

John Dermot Woods said...

Dylan's approach is certainly one that often makes good comics. But I think the prejudice has become that it's the only way to do it. Certain corporations have encouraged a team system that obscures visions and produces crappy comics - so there's a lot of reacting to that. But often allowing a work out of your grasp, and letting other creators to enter can create something much greater (this is obvious, right?). It's valuable to have faith in something beyond your own personal vision for a work. It's definitely worked for me on many an occasion. (I'm not sure what value exists based on the simple fact that a book is an auteur creation. What value do you think the Secret Acres guys see in it having only one creator?)

Sam Gas Can said...

"What value do you think the Secret Acres guys see in it having only one creator?"

Speaking mostly out of assumption, and my own experience, I think for the Secret Acres guys, it's more of a shit filter, as they get approached by a lot of half-baked ideas (as all publishers do). It seems like most team-ups only add up to something like "I'm writing this comic about zombies in love, and my brother is going to draw it!" and because, let's face it, most people are really lazy, and having someone to wait on to finish one part before you start yours is a good way to get nothing done. That zombie comic usually doesn't progress beyond a cover and two pages anyway, and no small press publisher is interested in finding an artist for a writer ("I'm a writer, I write"). I think if they were approached with something like "Aya" or "Rock That Never Sleeps", they would easily forgo said principle.

Tymmi said...

re: Jesse McManus and "it takes a village..."
I was remarking the other day on "The Ticking" and how while Renee French is an interesting cartoonist, Jordan Crane's design just made that perfect little jewel of a book. That kind of collaboration is often invisible, but it happens all the time.

A guy named John Barber wrote a terrific essay several years back, on the subject. I can't find the essay right now, so I'm gonna attempt a paraphrase: It centered (if I remember right) on a comparison of some Kim Deitch book and Crane's NON anthology. His argument was that while Deitch's cartooning was as strong or stronger than some of the stuff in NON, it suffered from poor presentation and the NON stuff was a better overall read thanks to the guiding hand of Jordan Crane's book design.

So, yeah, if you think of the printed comic as the final product (and why wouldn't you?), then that kind of collaboration can be very important.

Both Barber and I come out of webcomics. The internet opens up a whole new set of challenges to presentation. Webcomics give up a whole lot of control to the various browsers and user-specified parameters. Not even the web designers have final say in the presentation there. But webcomics have also featured some pretty fantastic generative collaboration. One of my favorite comics ever is A Lesson is Learned but the Damage is Irreversible, which is equal parts David Hellman and Dale Beran. I'm all for this kind of collaboration.

The whole artist/writer dichotomy is, and I think should be, blurred in comics. Drawing, writing, it's all the same here really. Division of the tasks can make for a disconnect in form, sure. Maybe that's waht Secret Acres, et al. are reacting against. There's a lot to be said for that "personal language" that develops - particularly in the kind of "art" comics a lot of you guys make. But bouncing ideas back and forth off each other can make some damn good comics too. And more than that, it's fun. Don't you guys talk your shit through with one another? Isn't that a kind of collaboration?

Anyway, after his own set of creative collaborations in webcomics (like The Discovery of Spoons with my buddy Alexander Danner) John Barber went on to become an editor at Marvel, which may seem like an ultimate evil to some people here. But I think there's something to be said for editorial intervention as well. Sometimes it helps to have someone outside force you to crawl out of your own head and maybe confront something that you're too close to see yourself.

And like Spiegelman said, you can always ignore it.

Sam Gas Can said...

"I love the strips in Multiforce but (the lone dissenter, I know) think the design stinks, that it inhibits my appreciation of the work, in a way that seeing it in Paper Rodeo didn't."

Gotta agree, a big Brinkman fan myself (obv.), felt like this would have worked better as a tabloid newspaper with the same layout maybe? "Too deluxe for it's own good", especially for such a seminal piece. I know Jon V. put a lot of work into it and, given, oversized with nice paper, but still, $15 for 22 pgs.? I know I'm a cheap bastard, but still...

Tymmi said...

"I live in this dreamworld where I think most people in the world read comics or care about comics. And then thought about how few of my friends outside of comics read comics."

Most of the people I associate with on a daily basis don't really read comics and couldn't give a shit about auteur vs assembly line and whatnot (Of course, most of the people I associate with on a daily basis probably don't know what auteur means either. But, whatever.)
I think the average person probably does not make a distinction between who does what in any given comic. It's just the end product that matters (If they even deign to look at it.)

It's really late. I should be asleep right now.

Jason Overby said...

There are biases within the comics world. Lots of folks feel there are two distinct cultures within comics: the Marvel/DC assembly line on one side and the indie auteurs on the other, but the end product is what most people will see, and, you're right, most people couldn't give a shit about how the thing was put together. They just want to read it and have it be good.

I sent a copy of "Jessica" to Matt Madden, and he gave me some really good, concrete criticism. I actually altered the comic based on his suggestions and all subsequent copies I printed are better because of it. When you spend a few years working on something that isn't traditionally plot/reality oriented, it's hard to know when you're done and hard to know what's going to make sense and what won't. A good critical eye is really helpful.

P.S. Forgot to mention Cold Heat (and the Cold Heat Specials - just got the one Michael Deforge did, and it's so good!) - the "art comics" (ha ha) supergroup comeek!

John Dermot Woods said...

Jason, it's really funny you mention Matt Madden. The very first comics I ever made (a side project for a theory seminar I was taking in grad school) were based on OULIPO constraints, so I sent them to Matt. He had no idea who I was and yet gave me this amazing and specific criticism. It really helped guide that project as I kept working on it (an invaluable case of generosity, too).
We're actually hosting Matt at my college on Tuesday for a reading/workshop - really looking forward to that.

Jason Overby said...

He's a great guy from everything I've heard and experienced. The book he and Jessica Abel co-wrote is an awesome resource for folks just starting out.

Mr. Freibert said...

On this topic, One example that comes to mind is Bodyworld. What is the real "work." Is it the book now? or is the book simply an artifact for the online comic. I just recently saw the physical book and for some reason I expected that each chapter would be printed on a long sheet of paper that would fold out (kind of like the elvis studio book) so that one would have to scroll down this column of a page, similarly to how you read it online. I was surprised that the pages all fit so well into a tight little printed book. I guess I expected the book to be more strange or untraditional because the online format seemed so unconventional for print. the printed book seemed to solidify the fact that Bodyworld really isn't that different formally, or that (when forced) it can conform very easily to the printed comic standard.

"I love the strips in Multiforce but (the lone dissenter, I know) think the design stinks, that it inhibits my appreciation of the work, in a way that seeing it in Paper Rodeo didn't."

"my reading of "multiforce" is influenced heavily by both the fort's web designer, and BJ's efforts as indesign maestro for print, but as much as brinkmans? need we parse potentials for praise? the work is the work."

"Gotta agree, a big Brinkman fan myself (obv.), felt like this would have worked better as a tabloid newspaper with the same layout maybe? "Too deluxe for it's own good", especially for such a seminal piece. I know Jon V. put a lot of work into it and, given, oversized with nice paper, but still, $15 for 22 pgs.? I know I'm a cheap bastard, but still..."

I don't understand the discontent with Multiforce. I'm happy that it's been printed all together and somewhat archivally. What about the design depreciates the work? it seems like the only thing that's been "redesigned" for this printing is the cover. the pages are all printed the same size as paper rodeo, on a somewhat sturdier cream paper. I don't feel like this work has been recontextualized or re-done for print like some of the other examples you are sighting. It seems to me like it is just bare bones multiforce. I almost wouldn't have been surprised if they had printed it as a hardcover (like storyville).

Jesse McManus said...

i would've liked multiforce to be printed on actual stone shavings from citadel city, but a chip-board cover would've been badass too. at least it's out there, collected.

when i opened it and saw that it was designed by BJ, the composition of the cover rang true, brought "gator" to mind:

http://www.opticalsloth.com/?p=10356

navigating multiforce on the old fort website felt like an extension of navigating the whole site. i guess paper rodeo is the most fun of the three options to actually read?

beating a dead horse....i want flapstack reprinted on bags of chocolate marshmallows

i blame noel for conjuring the mucid cusp-adoring geek out of me, onto these soiled keys, blarf.

Sam Gas Can said...

Mucid Cuspidor, haha, that's such an obscure reference, Jesse!

I don't know what it is, Noel, I can't really give you a better explanation beyond "vibes", but when I imagined a collected Multi-Force, that wasn't it. Jesse made a good call, chip-board would have been cool, just a little something more to remind me that this is coming from a person, felt too sudden, plain. I would rather it either be printed more cheaply, or all out like you say, hardcover, retrospective, maybe pictures of all his recent prints...

ZZ POT said...

frankie was right

this blog is one big 'obscure reference'

FIGBASH said...

or a small one, rather

Mr. Freibert said...

yeah, i can see that, the multiforce production is kind of a tweener state, it's not printed on gold, it's not printed on toilet paper, it's just printed on normal paper. multiforce is not normal.

Jason Overby said...

Yep, yep. Looked at Bodyworld in the store but can't get into the vertical pages. Someone (Sam?) said they wouldn't wanna read a calendar... A book seems like it's for the Grandparents/collectors. still not sure about Bodyworld...

Sam Gas Can said...

Yah, that was me Jason, I can understand Dash's concern of not wanting to break the "reading flow" in relation to it's original web format, in which case the idea of "chapter scrolls" sounds awesome to me, maybe folded zig-zag style (although obviously totally economically unfeasible). In the current vertical format, seems like finding a physical position in which to keep the flow "natural" already makes the reading process unnatural. Beautiful design otherwise, to be sure.

Chuck said...

Sorry to steer away from the multiforce/bodyworld discussion but the ideas Jason brought up about collaboration has been bouncing around in my head the last few weeks. And I think tymmi started to talk about collaboration in the way I have been in thinking it could work. I think there are almost an infinite number of ways it could work without strictly dividing up chores like writer and artist. I've started one collaboration where myself and the other cartoonist are adapting a book to comics and we are trying out a method that involves us passing layouts of the pages back and forth. It's been pretty fun so far.
Another recent collaboration I have done involved the other artist and I working on the piece in the same room. Passing pieces back and forth and trying to ink only the other artist's lines. the experience terrified me and I thought it would turn out to be a mess but it seemed to me that working so closely and immediately created almost a third voice in there. And when it was done it didn't really look like either on of us had drawn it.
It was sort of an awesome experience because I am very much into working alone and having a lot of control but this sort of required me to let go. It's a way of working that I really want to do more of.
Anyway. I'm a long time reader and this is the first time I had the courage to comment. Thanks for this great post, Jason O,

Tymmi said...

Jam drawings. Exquisite corpse. Cartoonists have been using these as parlor games for years. It would be great to see some "real" comics come out of that process.

"the idea of "chapter scrolls" sounds awesome to me, maybe folded zig-zag style"

That's pretty close to my comic. It has been a nightmare to get to print, but it's almost there.

tim goodyear said...

jason
" Looked at Bodyworld in the store but can't get into the vertical pages. Someone (Sam?) said they wouldn't wanna read a calendar"
i was on the fence myself
started reading it standing up but wanted to sit
it took me a bit of time to come to grasps with the formatting but once i placed the back cover on my forearm and held the front cover in my hand i became very comfortable with it
much more than i would have expected
one handed reading is'nt really a big issue to many folks but i found it gave me a greater deal of mobility on my reading posture which is very nice for me
it is an uncommon design choice but i think if an artist wants to give people the oppertunity to change who they are, this would be a good chance for them to rethink there behavior physically

i'v been in gallerys & meusiems with a variety of seating options {or none} and that can change the amount of time i'll spend there
i do think that if there is a paperback version of BW that it may offer a lot more obsticles than the hard cover in this respect
{note: i did'nt use the map flaps during the reading but would'nt have reguardless of format}

have you noticed that people are usually not too fond of zines/comics that are folded to the tallest length {8.5"X11" folded to 4.25"X11"} i made a comic that way once and folks just meltdown over that {i thought is was funny}

tom Neely said...

"have you noticed that people are usually not too fond of zines/comics that are folded to the tallest length {8.5"X11" folded to 4.25"X11"} i made a comic that way once and folks just meltdown over that {i thought is was funny}"

My book Brilliantly Ham-fisted is that format and at every show I get at least 10 people who pick it up and say "Oh, I love the format of this! It's so original!" and i reply "It's just 8.5 x 11 paper folded in half the long way..."

And the content of that book was specifically made without any regard to any feedback from any person other than myself. It was the most satisfying book I've made so far.

Jason Overby said...

Tom/Tim - It's so weird, but somehow, to me, a comic has to be stapled or bound so that you read it left to right, not top to bottom.  It's some old prejudice I have to get rid of.  And, yeah, people always respond better to the stuff I do for the sheer pleasure of doing it, stuff that flows naturally (Solipsist's Doodles) than to stuff that's more laborious (Exploding Head Man).

Chuck - Thank you.  You're right - there are so many different forms of collaboration: Dupuy & Berberian, Munoz & Sampayo, Auster & Karasik & Mazzucchelli, Alan Moore & Mark Beyer - so many different ways of doing things.  I'm trying to get Blaise to write a narrative that I'll illustrate with systems, patterns, some abstract drawings.  We'll see how it pans out...

Tym - have you ever seen Narrative Corpse?  It's this huge book Spiegelman put together in the 90s that's a long-form exquisite corpse comic by tons of different cartoonists (running the gamut from Mort Walker to Gary Panter).  I don't know if it's fully successful, but it's pretty cool regardless.

Jason Overby said...

I feel like I do my best work as editor of my own stuff.  I have to first gather the raw material (story, words, drawings, ideas), let it interact with the world around me (what I see, what people say to me, what I'm reading, what I'm listening to as I draw, etc.) and piece it together in a meaningful way.  I hate starting a project, but, once I'm in the thick of it, I couldn't be happier.  Comics are a great medium because there's so much stuff to glue together, to build into a shape - too much stuff to always be in control of.

Jason Overby said...

One more thing - there's been lots of talk (or at least a lot of talk from James Kochalka) about comics as this amalgamated thing, that we are "writing with pictures" (there was a big push in the 90s for silent comics as "pure" comics), that the words and pictures are fused together into an unbreakable whole.  I don't think this is always true. The way I (and lots of other people) make comics is in this plastic-y Rube Goldberg way that's more akin to movie making.  There's nothing "pure" about it, and I think that's great.

"trusty" said...

less rube goldberg

more GUSTAVE VERBEEK!!!!



i am serious

Jason Overby said...

Dan Nadel?

"Man Ladle" said...

Who is Dan Nadel

BTW, Gustave V. is sooooo last century

"Damn Cradle" said...

Verbeek often uses midgets and other short people as protagonists. They do not know up from down. I relate to this sentiment, and press forwards.

You only live one life, dudes.

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sam gas can