FEEL ROMANTIC/NO ART STATUS II

"When you say 'who wants to live with something' it sounds very collector oriented...Which is not how I think about work. I think that all the works are not something that I would want to look at all the time, and I think that's what makes interesting art to me. And I think there is something about duration, there's something for me about the fact that the photos are going into an exhibition-that's why it's so hard for me to make projects for printed matter, part of my practice is the fact that something would be taken down."

-Elad Lassry

I've been thinking a lot about success lately, what it means, how it relates to the practice of art-making.

I was reading an interview with Elad Lassry (a currently successful art-maker) in the most recent ANP Quarterly. I guess you'd call him a conceptual artist, but contemporary art is fairly specific and pedantic about labeling movements (it is discussed in the interview, for instance, that Elad is not part of the "New Conceptualism" movement) so who knows? Many of the ideas discussed ("the image," "the death of authorship") fit well with the abstraction I've built in my head to represent the social system of the contemporary art scene. These ideas elevate photographs, images, readymades, sculptures, etc. to something other than their quotidian selves. It seems like a game about knowing rules that are constantly shifting. It reminds me of fashion, how nothing has an absolute value, just a relative one according to what the conventions of the moment are.


This dialogue is what art has become, every successful artist engaged unwittingly (wittingly?) in a performance to keep themselves and their work "relevant." duh, duh, duh, duh, duh... Here's one of Lassry's photograph-objects:


"It's not that they're not stand-ins-they are-but part of what the work deals with is this potential of subjecthood, this slim potential for the unknown that leaves this need for other objects to enter, so all of a sudden there has opened a space to more than one headshot, because between them there are these multiple possibilities that became relevant to me." -E.L, again


I have a romantic attachment to particularity. I cling to the mid-twentieth century notion that language can't describe everything. Or this character I'm playing who is invested in having an ethos thinks so. It's tricky.

This is a performance for myself, a framing device for me.


The point is, though, why make a conceptual work? Is it to leave an artifact of the time you spent thinking? Is it a way to engage with a physical space and include others in the process of making sense of it? There's little more that I get from Lassry's images than: "huh - this confirms my expectations and prejudices." Or is that reductive bullshit? What do I do with it? Why are conceptual works usually just "profundity" in the form of a punchline? The art world seems so insular, making an object-that-is-incidentally-a-photograph-and-may-or-may-not-be-a-reference-to-the-history-of-art-and-objecthood-in-general seems like a cop out, a way to have something to sell and promote that is also critical of that side of things, less a spiritual practice than a way to have your cake and eat it too. But there's a support system of artists and patrons that facilitate that kind of work. I'm not a part of that world: bitter gripe, bitter gripe, bitter gripe... I tweeted this after the Portland Publication Fair:
"I'm a sucker"

I am a very self-indulgent maker. While the work I'm creating does engage with the concerns of culture, I'm less interested in participating in the social aspect of art than in using art-making as a tool to fill time, give me focus and goals, help me understand my surroundings and find "meaning" in things (or at least have epiphanies).


I received an e-mail from someone calling themselves "not-cf" saying:

"If you put Which Episode, Spiderman, Jesus, SS/BW, et al. in a book, please let me know. Sum uv #1 draw i eva c"

I know not to take this very seriously, but I also know that if I make more comics like those pages, folks would be interested in what I'm doing. Why should I give a shit? Why do I do this?

In the comics community the strategy of making ugly work that is quasi-conceptually challenging doesn't seem to work. I won't make money drawing comics (luckily, I like my day job) so why make objects out of them? Isn't online dissemination the best way to have your art seen by the greatest number of people? Do the strips need a specific context? Do I need anyone to see what I'm doing? Do I need to participate in a social system of trading?

Alright - I'm getting sick of this: too earnest, too earnest, too earnest. Here's a list of other things I might've discussed:

Manny Farber

succe

can't get away from didacticism but feel like I should just be making images that look cool

"the image"

EC comics and conceptualism

this tweet about this:

Readymade vs cartoonist's style

Internet vs physical distribution

Self vs "mediated" self

198 comments:

Ian Harker said...

"It seems like a game about knowing rules that are constantly shifting. It reminds me of fashion, how nothing has an absolute value, just a relative one according to what the conventions of the moment are."

No shit dude.

I guess it's still pretty impressive when someone is successful at this. Then again, maybe it's just as impressive as someone who is a successful salesman.

Blaise said...

:)

Cultural movements seem as inconsequential as 4chan or dump.fm - referring to constantly changing reference points in order to make jokes which prove one's membership in the cutting edge of culture

I mean culture has become a joke pretty much ... Or its hierarchy has become more invisible, so that all that is visible is self referential humor. Listen to pop music - half the lyrics are references to other pop hits.

it's interesting that at the same time that art and culture have been liquifying comics have been crystallizing in the form of the graphic novel. i think institutions (art, music, government) are cutting edge by becoming porous whereas already cutting edge media etc are lauded for becoming stable / institutional. The rooting for the underdog has become a stable form of culture (nerd culture) and now every indie project is created as a charity (via kickstarter). Indie projects (and they are necessarily 'projects' because anything less would be too ephemeral / cutting edge) romanticize their underdog status, as does just about every pop star.

Is having your cake and eating it too the most pragmatic approach within a genre (art) that requires critique and cash flow? No matter how transparent you are about this situation (and a lot of people are even mannerist in their role as business artist - it really seems likea way of relying on archetype without critiquing that archetype) it will still seem like a sophisticated self aware pose. Any critique of these characters plays into their character's morally ambiguous / machiavellian character. Actually there's probably some good critique of this character that I am unaware of.

Blaise said...

the critique of the business artist would have to be a critique of the actor's interpretation of the archetype - not the archetype itself.

Jason Overby said...

hmmm... agreed... I have no problem with the morality of that stance, but I wonder about its utility for me, i.e, what is art for? The artist I referenced seems pretty genuine to me, at least in the sense that he is "serious" and not Mark Kostabi or something, but in taking his own art seriously he seems to be full of shit. It's not like you have to be either a Koons-esque nihilist or a Darger-esque mystic, but I wonder if most contemporary artists aren't just involved in a political enterprise that has nothing to do with art. But, of course, what is art? har har

Puddin' Taint said...

the critique of self-critique in the artist's performance as a self-aware business artist from a hyper-aware lapsed neo-marxist indie celebrity

as critical performance art

as a business plan

works?

Anonymous said...

i miss Bjork. a lot

Jason Overby said...

@Blaise

And (not that you sad I was) I want to make it clear that I don't want to be an underdog - that's just a different kind of cop out. I was trying to figure out a way to tread that line between self-romanticization and nihilistic careerism. My language is imprecise.

Ian Harker said...

The social allure of contemporary art is a very powerful thing. I think you guys may be caught in it's trance, no offense. The institution itself has cultivated this allure but at the expense of broader appeal and real cultural impact. It seemed as though at one time Art was something that mattered, that shaped modern society. Maybe that's just a myth though, a revisionist history. Either way I'm quite certain that nobody really cars anymore. It's just another commodity for rich Russian businessmen like Roman Ambramovich. A Damien Hirst is just a lesser entertaining trophy than Chelsea Football Club.

Maybe I'm just a cynic, or maybe I'm 100% right. Either way what's the difference to me?

Jason Overby said...

Björk here

Jason Overby said...

No, Ian, you're right

Anonymous said...

@Jerk Off
omg is that reeeeeeeeallllll????

Jason Overby said...

It's the dumb allure of immortality vs perpetual motion. There isn't really an answer, of course.

Jason Overby said...

@anon

came so yes

Discussion as Performance Art said...

@Ian
if someone comments multiple times a day on comments threads that relate to that person's interests, is it possible that that person is entranced by the social allure surrounding the kind of community to which they contribute?

yes, it is possible. and probably likely. and it's not a bad thing.

(the hypothetical person i'm discussing is you #fyi)

Trendcatsitter said...

Does anyone else think that after the Dionysian age of insanity that was the 00s, we can look forward to an Apollonian cultural renewal in the 10s?

I do.

Jason Overby said...

btw, struck at Publication Fair that my zines seems really legitimately crummy compared with the elegant work of other people.

Jason Overby said...

@trendcatsitter

Play-doh

blaise said...

allure of contemporary art = allure of young aristocracy

@jason perhaps authenticity was projected onto your publication fair character ... authenticity via 'punk roots' (which publication studio seems to embody well)

Jason Overby said...

Aidan=authentic (for real!), me=anti-social weirdo

blaise said...

authentic 4 real left a comment

Operatic said...

@Jason
Koons is not a nihilist. He's the True Believer Cvlt Leader.
Hirst I would say is a nihilist. And a "bitch."

by Samsonite said...

@blaise
re: authentic alt irl's comment, where at?

@Jason
re: elegance, lulu etc. or is that not punk enuff?

Ian Harker said...

@DasPA

I'm interested in the people who make comics that inspire and interest me, and as an artist I want to make work that might have the same effect on them and whatever potential mutual audience. In other words I'm trying to share an experience because I find personal value in it. I'm actually comforted on some level that nobody besides us care about these kinds of comics. We all know that an issue of Paper Rodeo is a hundred times more interesting than something an Arab Oil Tycoon/Art collector might pay $100,000 for. We know this deep in our hearts but the pied piper's tune is always on the wind. I just don't care so much (about "High Art") anymore, maybe because I'm getting old.

I think we should all just do our best with what we love and hope that an archeologist 1000 years from now finds it important. Who cares what some morally corrupt commodities market deems to be important.

Day Trader by Night said...

@Ian
It seems as though you care what some morally corrupt commodities market deems to be important, based on your dismissal of '("High Art")' at least partially due to its participation in the commodities market.

I genuinely enjoy certain Jeff Koons works. This enjoyment is not based on their economic value in any way or on an ironic critical posture toward overpriced kitsch.

I'm glad you find the alternative comics community personally meaningful. I do as well.

Boba Fett said...

@jason overbees

Dis-enchantment

a href equals said...

bjork

agreed. ian is very invested in [his projection of] collector-driven art [erroneously conflated w/ 'contemporary art' via negation

NIN said...

@a href =
so much neg investing :(

the reality of most commercial gallery art is how commercially not-viable it actually is, and yet the galleries, dealers, and commercial artists slog onwards (i.e. 'little guys everywhere' i.e 'we're all little guys in the face of death and an infinite cosmos')

thx 4 respectful bjork pix :)

do comix people said...

try to wear too many hats?

nope said...

not enough.

true.... said...

but some of these hats have lice

phantasmosis said...

I like a lot of what was said here. the thing about culture/4chan was probably the most astute thing I've read here. I feel like the answers to your questions that you put at the end there are pretty difficult since you have given yourself odd criteria for success.
sounds like there's lots of shades of grey in there? seems weird that you sound quick to say you like yr day job, then struggle to find meaning in your own stuff. I'm not being facetious, what makes you happy about art making? if there's not an element of happiness, one not arrived at from the fact you've been doing it for a long time, then I dont know. maybe your keen ability to decipher trends/ideas muddles what you consider success to be? or maybe it muddles your personal motivation? I dont know though. usually what makes you happy without much intellectualization and feels like a satisfying dump to make is what people respond to. it's tricky because that might not even be good stuff. I guess I've always naively believed that people who made stuff that excited them deep down usually found their corner of the world that was excited by it, too. that corner might not be art history, but art history has it's quirks and flaws like any corner. (i.e animation, crafts, architecture, radio jingles...)


however I reread this and my heart skipped a beat:
"can't get away from didacticism but feel like I should just be making images that look cool"

i'm graduating from school in 6 months from art school and as me and my peers start reaching a pseudo professional level in our craft I cant help but feel like though anyone would hire us we all make completely unadventurous dumbed down work. I mean, being 21 is a slight excuse, but in education (at least in illustration) it seems like the notion of making images that are interesting is slayed by the notion of being able to maintain a sense of consistency about the work. at this point in people's development you see this become a pressure on people...and a lot of times people will start throwing away ideas and rough edges to get at this consistency...usually once the rough edges get thrown away people get positive responses and they feel better about the work. this seems like a dangerous attitude to me. I guess because I look at visual artists I have been into, in really stupid terms, struggled to make as interesting work as possible, oftentimes pissing against the wind before removing the rough edges and getting at the sugary center of what they making. I always got the sense that all the struggles people took to get where they are informed 'their best work' or something.
when I make things, If I toss away any intent, like you are suggesting, and just make whatever I want to, maybe 'a cool picture', I feel like I'm removing myself from an essential part of that journey and making stuff that reads easily as 'a dumbed down version of x or y'. People usually seem more forgiving for some reason. if people enjoy something they usually do their best to be apologetic about it.

anyways, that's super long and probably mostly based on my own slanted concrete views and neuroses, but hopefully someone finds some interest in there. sorry for getting so off topic.

phantasmosis said...

holy shit. that is so long. I'm so sorry.

Berry Blend said...

@phantasmosis
i really like your thoughts. thanks for sharing. what school do you go to (west coast i'm guessing #justaguess)?

especially enjoy this of yours:
Domestic

blaise said...

making things that look cool is a tricky occupation. in some ways it seems easy - just extend and combine or otherwise manipulate visual and conceptual memes. but: 'what is in is out'. i like a really clever visual joke but there is a lot of quasi clever stuff to wade through.

@NIN same with fashion, seems like projection of wealth is vital, inherent.

phantasmosis said...

actually, east coast.

I go here, for illustration:
http://www.risd.edu/

legendurry providence, ri

Kramer vs. Himself said...

@blaise
agree, in a society based on a completely meaningless and valueless currency, creating the perception of heightened value ensures the durability of visual experimentation. this fraudulence is both regrettable and part of the entertainment of life's constant carnival

@phantasmosis
risd, huh. cool deal

blaise said...

well phrased

Anonymous said...

so that's a phake blaise, rite?

Judge and Jury said...

Hearsay as admissible and even preferred evidence

=

innerwebs

Jason Overby said...

@phantasmosis

"maybe your keen ability to decipher trends/ideas muddles what you consider success to be? or maybe it muddles your personal motivation? "

This is totally it. I'm generally pretty content when I'm just screwing around making things, but I get into trouble when I try to show them to other people. The dull thud of recognizing my lack of inherent specialness. But it's an addiction, and it's difficult for me now not to post images of everything I do. The satisfaction that used to be related only to making comics is now tangled and mediated by the ease and immediacy of distribution. And I don't spend as much time on any one thing as I used to.

Having a baby will ramp up your sense of urgency pretty quickly. As my daughter Rita said yesterday, "poopies happen."

Jason Overby said...

RE elegance: I just mean they had nice looking objects. Mine looked really clunky

@Ian

"We all know that an issue of Paper Rodeo is a hundred times more interesting than something an Arab Oil Tycoon/Art collector might pay $100,000 for."

This is true. There was a great Inkstuds interview with Brian Chippendale where he was saying how amazing everything was in the Ft. Thunder days when he felt like the best artists in the world were the guys living with him and other culture didn't really matter. It gets harder to maintain that energy and enthusiasm when you're in your mid-thirties and have to support/be there for your wife and daughter. Priorities shift.

It is important that I like my day job, I think, because it means I don't have to really try to be cool or successful at art or whatever. But ditto what I wrote above - time gets really limited when you're working 40+/wk & you want to spend time with your family, too.

@Day Trader

"I genuinely enjoy certain Jeff Koons works. This enjoyment is not based on their economic value in any way or on an ironic critical posture toward overpriced kitsch."

it's good to decontextualize, too.

Jason Overby said...

@Blaise
@phantasmosis:

"making things that look cool is a tricky occupation."

The other thing about this is that you end up with a house full of these little paintings or drawings. For me, I have a hard time not just thinking of them as junk after a while. Some part of me, also, needs to connect art-making to utility somehow. "Why am I doing this? What does it mean? What is the purpose?" Can't seem to shake this.

Austin English said...

"The moral flabbiness born of the exclusive worship of the bitch-goddess SUCCESS. That — with the squalid cash interpretation put on the word success — is our national disease."

-William James

OOOOOOFTAH said...

thanks austin

Ian Harker said...

@DTbN

My (minimal) interest in contemporary art is just a natural offshot of my legit interest in art history. I could live in an art museum and never get bored, contemporary art just doesn't feel the same. It feels forced, like a charade. I keep focusing on the idea of venue and it's evolution. Art was first on a cave wall, then on a cathedral wall, then on a gallery wall. Galleries don't seem to make sense anymore. It's not the dawn of the modern era anymore, this isn't Paris in the 1910's. Of course the internet makes sense as the next venue, but it doesn't seem to be playing out. Maybe we are thinking to narrowly, maybe Wikileaks is the greatest piece of conceptual art ever. It's certainly a more important advent then Christos wrapping another thing in orange paper.

Austin English said...

"We all know that an issue of Paper Rodeo is a hundred times more interesting than something an Arab Oil Tycoon/Art collector might pay $100,000 for."

Do we? I know what you mean but I hate that casual dismissal of art that you and I dont understand as being not-legit or whatever. Whoever made that thing that someone is paying 100K for might actually be into making it.

I jsut think its just as important to try to look at that stuff with an open mind as we might hope a 'arab oil tycoon' (to use your gross example) to look at paper rodeo and go 'whoa must have.'

Austin English said...

For instance, when I go to The New Museum, I'm turned off by a lot of that stuff. But just because I don't 'get it' doesn't mean I can dismiss it. There's something strong about that stuff and my own failings as an audience have NOTHING to do with its merits.

Ian Harker said...

Austin, my point about the "Arab Oil Tycoon" (they exist btw) is that they aren't buying art based on it's merits, they are buying it based on it's commodity value. It's an investment that brings prestige to their image. Do you really think these multi-billionares who control the art market spend two seconds thinking about art in any critical sense?

At least some of Hirst's pieces are a reflection of this reality. He's done a bunch of golden cabinets filled with diamonds. At least that is exactly what it is, disgusting as that may be.

Austin English said...

"Do you really think these multi-billionares who control the art market spend two seconds thinking about art in any critical sense?'

How can anyone say for sure? Im sure some fit into the popular stereotype youre rolling out...but some probably are as passionate about that stuff as anyone else.

Either way, I don't agree with this

"We all know that an issue of Paper Rodeo is a hundred times more interesting"

Yeah to you it is. I hate the comics world attitude that the 'fuck around' nature of comics is automatically better than the oh-so-cynical art world. They both have their qualities and you don't need to fuck over one to enjoy the other,

Jason Overby said...

When I was in college I hated any establishment contemporary art that smacked of pretentiousness. But once I took money (or value) out of the equation I opened myself up to a lot more art. When I stopped being worried about being hoodwinked by some ahtiste I could appreciate lots of things (Hirst's pieces, for instance) for the qualities that make them amazing and not how they fit into the hierarchical art system. obviously, I still wrestle with this, but I'm trying to worry less about fairness or justice and more about radnes.

Austin English said...

"maybe Wikileaks is the greatest piece of conceptual art ever. It's certainly a more important advent then Christos wrapping another thing in orange paper."

Shouldnt the end result of wikileaks be that we exist in a world where we can wrap stuff in orange paper all the live long day?

Hating a guy like Christo makes no sense to me. He is just a guy making these strange things...totally no violent, making art that shouldn't have any wide appeal but somehow does. Id be happy if the entire world could do what he does. I don't 'like' it in the same way that I like cheerios...but tht is the problem with comics 'thought.' Good = enjoying stuff in the same way you enjoy cheerios.

Austin English said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DTbN as an Emoticon said...

@Ian

see:

jstchillin.org
paintfx.biz
dump.fm
dismagazine.com
commissioning.in
flickr.com/galleries
ytmnd.com
blingee.com
canyoudrawtheinternet.com
scribbls.com
http://bit.ly/bFVVkD (pixel arts image generator, great site, terrible url)
img mgmt on artfagcity.com
thestate.tumblr.com
chrystalgallery.info
lightandwiregallery.com

and others for examples of the internet recreating the 'gallery experience' in the 21st century

Ian Harker said...

Jason and Austin,

My point is that the fact that these things go for top dollar on auction to the global elite power brokers only is the reason why they will go down as the "important" works of our times. That stinks. It was a cool joke when Warhol did it... 50 years ago. I think Paper Rodeo gives me more of a kick, but that's free art, which for all intents and purposed on the art scene = worthless.

I'm ot saying I get no kick from Hirst or Koons or Christo or whoever, i'm just saying it's much less of a kick that I get from a comic. There is more of a personal connection with the comic. Cheerios are not part of the equation.

phantasmosis said...

"The other thing about this is that you end up with a house full of these little paintings or drawings. For me, I have a hard time not just thinking of them as junk after a while. Some part of me, also, needs to connect art-making to utility somehow. "Why am I doing this? What does it mean? What is the purpose?" Can't seem to shake this."

I feel this way too. I think I feel the need to pursue art as a career/try and create an audience for my stuff because I'm kinda pragmatic and want to find a reason for the things I make. I guess it's just a fine line between finding your own reason for making stuff and having that urge be satisfied by other's criteria for your things. it seems like a slippery slope. I had more to say but I'm going to leave it at that. think I said this before up there anyways.

@Austin
"For instance, when I go to The New Museum, I'm turned off by a lot of that stuff. But just because I don't 'get it' doesn't mean I can dismiss it. There's something strong about that stuff and my own failings as an audience have NOTHING to do with its merits."

do you ever feel that your response to it is solely because of context? like, 'well, it's in a museum, there's something strong, I just dont get it...'
I get this way sometimes. some of it is probably because of time being spent in one place, so I'm stuck with the work, but if I'm browsing around stuff on the internet I usually am way less forgiving about immediate qualities and way less investigative. I'm probably just lazy, but i dunno.
that is interesting about 'the gallery experience online', makes me think the the pragmatic/fluid nature of the internet will cause some intriguing discussions about art/worth/context...

Anonymous said...

create a history and do your own work that interprets it. ignore anything that isn't relevant to you. don't "play a character" or have an artistic brand or persona. don't pander to anything you feel distaste for. especially on the internet. if you're doing stuff that's specific to the internet you should avoid putting your name on it.

Henry James said...

The natural inheritance of everyone who is capable of spiritual life is an unsubdued forest where the wolf howls and the obscene bird of night chatters.

Jeff K said...

73H N47UR4L 1NH3R174nC3 oF 3v3RyOn3 WHO 12 k4P4BL3 of 5P1r17U4L l1F3 12 4 un5uBdU3D PhOr357 wH3R3 73h wOlf hOWl2 4nd 73H Ob5c3N3 b1RD Of n19H7 CH4773R2

William turdblake said...

Then, on May 11th 1999, I got the Internet. I thought it was great. I could find all sort of information without even leaving my home.
I found out one of my friends was also on the Internet, and asked him for his Email address. Later he told me about a chat program called ICQ. And I found it, and installed it. I never expected it to change my life the way it has.

1337 said...

respect.

flunsie said...

@c.bren

"if you're doing stuff that's specific to the internet you should avoid putting your name on it."

dahling, i love ya, but this is the most unreasonable prohibitive baseless assertive nonsense i eva did hear

Anonymous said...

No, you should have separate receptacles. It's obscene to mix the pi pi with the ca ca

Jimmy Wales, Serial Rapist said...

The following passage is intended for all fellow editors who believe that the dictionary definition of "caca" (="feces") belongs here. It does not. This page is a disambiguation page, the main purpose of which, per WP:DAB, is to provide navigational assistance by listing all articles (or potential articles), the title of which may be "Caca". This clause of WP:DAB explicitly advises against including dictionary definitions of any sort; this is further confirmed by WP:NOT#DICT, which states that Wikipedia is not a dictionary. For a wiki that is a dictionary, please see Wiktionary.

No matter how "common sense" an inclusion of a dictionary definition on this (or any other) disambiguation page may seem, doing so is against the guidelines. A word may have many meanings or variations of meaning; it is highly impractical to pollute disambiguation pages (which, again, serve only as navigation assistance) with dictionary definitions. No disambiguation page is capable of providing as detailed information about a word as Wiktionary, and we do make sure to include a Wiktionary link when doing so makes sense.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:31, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

bum bum said...

but doesn't art run on obscenity?

naked honesty said...

-i probably cry at least once a week

-every single social interaction no matter how banal is the height of art in my opinion

-driving a car is erotic meditation

-i am violently happy 24/7

-guilt is a funny joke that i like to see caricaturized in material form

-emotional expression is a radiant show of omnipotence

-light is just active dust

Jason Overby said...

@c. Bren

I just meant "this character" in the sense that I (and just about everyone, I'd guess) am often not consistent.  When I refer to "my morality" or "my philosophy" internally I am thinking about something already decided that may or not have anything to do with how I feel right now.  Like I have these "issues" or "concerns" that are what I often make art about but don't always relate in any way to my actual mental state.  Like how language in general is a simplification or abstraction of fluid processes.

Anonymous said...

by disassociating yourself from stuff that you say by talking about "your character" or by talking about various kinds of abstraction or how things change over time you're trying to devest yourself of taking any position, and you can do that if you want but i don't see what the point would be if this is a position you're adopting artistically. i don't think this transcendalist, detached, unmarked position that you're taking is an interesting one to make art from. and it's a pretty big privilege to be able to do that because if you're, like, a female artist trying to do that, to take one example, nobody is going to let you because they're going to insist on reading specific qualities into your work because of the marginalized position you occupy. it's annoying to have that done to your work but besides that i don't mind occupying a specific position. i would like to make work that is embodied. you can't escape the fact of occupying a specific position, although especially if it's to some extent a position of privilege you can use the kind of critical manoeuvring that i see on this blog to try to erase that and to claim this fictitious "unmarked" critical position. artists have done that for a long time already, i kind of would like to do something else especially since there's a certain opportunity available to us since we're working in a culturally marginalized art form. but i guess with this conversation about 'high art' you're expressing your interest in being part of the culturally dominant narrative. that narrative is really boring and irrelevant to me and anyway it's something i would be excluded from even if i wanted to be a part of it. i'm interested in establishing an alternative.

Anonymous said...

when i develop a name i think about how many ways i can fly beyond that name and leave everything behind that i've established for myself and it turns out that my field is unlimited and everything that i can possibly imagine belongs to my mind and therefore my experience and the sun shines and the dawn breaks and i cross clouds every second and it's an orange cirlce that i own...and it's free

rests said...

for instance i just watched a downward-sliding optical illusion slide across this screen and behind c.bren's post and it lent a powerful movement to her very assured ideas. cool!

Jason Overby said...

Hmmm...  I think I'm generally pretty clear about stating my context.. And this isn't some art pose.  Pretty much all the comics I've made have been about me trying to determine what my identity is or whether there's any solidity to any truth.  Taking a stance truly always seems false to me, a lie because I can always understand another point of view and don't need to win.  But I also don't need to lose, and I can see how the way I operate on this blog could be annoying because I don't stay attached to any assertions I've made for very long.  But 1) I can assure you that this is exactly how I am irl and 2) everything is so complex and nuanced that if I disagree with something it's often because I don't have enough information. These decisions don't establish anything for vey long.  In the blog post I was just annoyed with myself for being so earnest always.

You're right that I'm coming at this from a place of privilege, but I have no other perspective to offer.

The art world is much more seductive and mysterious to me than the comics world.

Petty Poop said...

@Jason
shop talk loves you

King's Bounty said...

@cbren any thoughts on this blog post?

... said...

blaise an imomus omg so trad circa 2005-09 nostalgia / drano.

King's Bounty said...

^.^ guilty!

ULAND said...

You know I didn't write that naked honesty comment, right?

wizardacorn, outed gay said...

Nice Nagel by the way.

Anonymous said...

@kingsbounty i hope the shithead loses his other eye

Robert Boyd said...

Ian Harker, your comments here scream ressentiment, which is a pretty unattractive quality to have.

"My point is that the fact that these things go for top dollar on auction to the global elite power brokers only is the reason why they will go down as the "important" works of our times. [...] I think Paper Rodeo gives me more of a kick, but that's free art, which for all intents and purposed on the art scene = worthless."

Your don't know your art history as well as you think if this is what you believe. As long as there has been a commercial art market, there have been big stars whose work went for ridiculous amounts of money whose work was later more-or-less forgotten by art history, outside of a few specialists. And on the flip side, people whose work sold hardly at all while they were alive now are respected and beloved (for example, one of my favorite American painters, John F. Peto, had a day job playing cornet in a church band--his work wasn't rediscovered for 40-odd years after his death.) And plenty in between those two poles. Why do you think it will be any different with the Hirsts and Murakamis today?

Furthermore, many of these people whom you casually disdain--Christo, for example--well, they weren't always successful and "rich." He started off as a starving artist (a defector from Bulgaria, his early years in Paris were no picnic). You praise Paper Rodeo, but Christo's early work (for example Iron Curtain where he blocked off rue Visconti in Paris with a wall made of oil barrels) was 1) radical and eye-opening (this was 1962), and 2) completely free (because it was temporary and installed guerrilla-fashion).

But the reality is that his work is always free, if you can go to where he installs it (often in very out-of-the-way places like Central Park). And as for the $100,000 artworks you deride--well, most of those are free as well. Galleries (unlike many museums) don't charge you to visit them. I do it all the time. I might like what I see or hate it--but my reaction has nothing to do with the price.

I mean, the people who were in Paper Rodeo also show their work in galleries and in some cases command high prices. And good for them! It means that they may be able to continue being artists.

An artist like Ben Jones will put his work out in relatively inexpensive form (books, TV shows), expensive forms (art objects) or free (when his work is shown in a gallery, it is effectively free for anyone to see it). And I'd say there was just as much chance of Ben Jones or CF or Jim Drain being remembered by future art historians than Damien Hirst.

Austin English said...

Well said.

Also, the idea that 'expensive art' always translates into a well regarded place in history for that art doesn't take into account Julian Schnabel or countless others.

Ian Harker said...

Look, everything that I bring up is just a symptom of the real problem, and that to me is the disconnect between the art world and the public. Maybe the art has gotten worse or maybe the public has gotten worse, most likely both. Maybe I'm mis-perceiving the whole thing and there has always been a disconnect and historians have papered that over. Either way all I'm saying is that the institution of fine art is for all intents and purposes irrelevant to anything but itself.

That's enough to demystify it in my eyes.

Ian Harker said...

look i appreciate all your responses, which i'm not going to go into at this time, but let's change topics and talk about what i think we really should be talking about. I think I speak for everybody whenI say art and the public have gotten worse. This would be fine and dandy if they were somehow connected - but they're not. Art is and the public do not interact wi each other. This is the real tragedy. Being disconnectd is probaboy the worst feeling ever. Thoughts?

Ian Harker said...

Hey man, I'm just trying to help Jason into a soft landing.

Ian Harker said...

All I'm saying is the institution of fine art is irrelevant to anyone but itself. It's irrelevant to me, to my family, and yes, even to ypu dear reader. Sorry to burst your bubble. The institution of fine art is one big in-joke and I think I speak for everyone when I say we are tired of being laughed at. Let's be honest here. No one relates to contemporary art. It's off in its ivory tower doing stupid god knows what and meanwhile the rest of us - guys like you and me - are just trying to express ourselves. Sorry if that makes me a pedestrian blue collar baseball fan. Let's just face the obvious: some wealthy foreigners (they exist btw) are having their little get together wheere they all where their little costumes and prance around and pretend to like the stuff they are buying - well i wasnt invited to the party! Id raer be sitting heree in my living room making stuff i really care about - real stuff! Let's admit the obvious: comics are connected to the public in all the ways contemporary art is not. And like it or not that's a good thing.

Ian Harker said...

See, this is where I disagree with myself. Comics are just as irrelevant, but I'm fine with that. However, comics are a young form and there is still a lot of room for progress, even if no one cares but a few people. Fine Art on the other hand is spinning its wheels, the show's over, might as well be smooth jazz.

Robert Boyd said...

The American Association of Museums estimates that about 697 million people visited museums in 2009. Let's say half of those visits went to art museums. Not a bad number, eh? Not to mention people who went to art galleries, saw public art, watched Art:21 on PBS or Work of Art on Bravo, or who encountered art online. Now I know a lot of comics got read in 2009, too. I don't know how to compare the art viewing public with the comic reading public. Anyway, most people don't know anything about art except for a few big names and most people likewise don't know much about comics. Make that contemporary art and art comics, and the number of people who know much of anything about it is much smaller. And it has always been this way. Do you think the American public in 1925 was more tuned into art than they are now? And why does it even matter?

Most people who are interested in contemporary art aren't rich masters of the universe. They're people who visit contemporary art museums, who buy cheap prints from 20x200, etc. Sure we hear all about the big auction results and the big money collectors. That's because rich people buying high-status objects is always news--and has always been news since Veblen wrote Theory of the Leisure Class and long before that.

(By the way, why the obsession with wealthy foreigners? What does it matter what the nationality is of the guy who, say, spent 6 million Euros on a Peter Doig painting at auction. There are rich people on every continent except Antarctica. Some of them buy art. So?)

Ian Harker said...

Well, not that their American counterparts are much better, but developing countries generally have less stringent labor laws which equates to greater human and workers rights violations by their ruling class.

Wut wut said...

I just purchased a $500 print from 'up-and-coming-net-artist' Jon Rafman (click mah namez 4 img src).

Atlantic article about a different project of his

That's not Hirst prices and I don't believe that Jon is rolling in piles of gold coins, but it's a huge chunk out of my incredibly modest funds.
Why did I spend so much money on something that I could possibly figure out how to make myself for one tenth of the cost?

To participate in the art market and develop a personal collector identity which I plan to use and grow creatively in the future as a means to share art and reframe the common perception of collectorship, develop a relationship with an artist living 1000 miles away from me (who subsequently invited me to Skype chat him any time and has sent me his personal musings on the work, which have not been shared elsewhere with anyone), help directly financially assist an artist who I believe is doing 'noteworthy boundary-pushing' work in a variety of modes and will probably continue to do so rather than devolve into an alcoholic scenester in 2 years, hedge a bet on investing in an object that may be worth much more money in the future (who knows/not impossible), and lastly to possess an object that will make me think of all kinds of interesting stories and ideas and connections that I wouldn't have gotten if I'd printed it out myself.

Counterpoint is that I'm really glad there are blue collar comix ghettos in America as well. Hi/lo: all necessary.

Anonymous said...

@Ian

ur last point is quasi-valid
worth mentioning anyway

Garfield: His 9 Lives said...

jim davids is robber baron making garfields gat off your horse davids!! your horse is too high, get a smaller horse. my 5 year old could draw a better comic and actually she does because she works in garry trudeau's sweatshop which is next door from from "fat cat" jim davids'

Patrick McDonnell said...

GARFIELDS IS SWEATSHOP LABOR. READ MUTTS, AN ALL-AMERICAN COMIC

Anonymous said...

3 pannels for a garfield? that's Highway Robbery. Marmaduke is only one panel and the dog is even bigger than the cat. Better value.

wizardacorn, drinking cough syrup said...

<3 u gnarlfield concept spammer

Casey Kill'em said...

Gnarlsfield T. Barkley - "(I'm) Crazy (About Lasagna [But I Hate Mondays])"

David Byrne said...

Well yall might think you're really contentious with all these opinions you have about art and other stuff I don't know about but there's one thing you CAN'T disagree with which is that THERE'S NO GREATER BAND THAN THE BEATLES!

Anonymous said...

i thought david byrne knew a lot about art. no?

Orientalist Brian Eno said...

"Africa is everything that something like classical music isn’t. Classical—perhaps I should say “orchestral”—music is so digital, so cut up, rhythmically, pitchwise and in terms of the roles of the musicians. It’s all in little boxes. The reason you get child prodigies in chess, arithmetic, and classical composition is that they are all worlds of discontinuous, parceled-up possibilities. And the fact that orchestras play the same thing over and over bothers me. Classical music is music without Africa. It represents old-fashioned hierarchical structures, ranking, all the levels of control. Orchestral music represents everything I don’t want from the Renaissance: extremely slow feedback loops. "

Do you know what I hate about computers? The problem with computers is that there is not enough Africa in them. This is why I can’t use them for very long. Do you know what a nerd is? A nerd is a human being without enough Africa in him or her. I know this sounds sort of inversely racist to say, but I think the African connection is so important. You know why music was the center of our lives for such a long time? Because it was a way of allowing Africa in. In 50 years, it might not be Africa; it might be Brazil. But I want so desperately for that sensibility to flood into these other areas, like computers.

What’s pissing me off is that it uses so little of my body. You’re just sitting there, and it’s quite boring. You’ve got this stupid little mouse that requires one hand, and your eyes. That’s it. What about the rest of you? No African would stand for a computer like that. It’s imprisoning."
-Wired Magazine, May, 1995, the words of Brian Eno, world expert on Africa and Black People

Uh-uh said...

Fuh-get choo Brian Eno

My book ideas.com said...

Talking Heads: The Triumph of Mediocre Good Taste

lastworthy said...

I always find these things wayyyyy too late...

Anonymous said...

^well u picked a good name at least, lol

Tidal Slut said...

NYE premiere party blog Haze Luux opens to the public on.... New Year's Eve!

at commetscommets.blogspot.com

img/chat/tunes/linx

and more!!!!!!!!!!

get wasted on the web!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

http://pukelord666.blogspot.com/

Anonymous said...

^ do u want author privileges at haze luux artyparty c.bren ? ; i want u 2 post but ur contact info is hard 2 find online (hit me up at kingofthegrays at the gmail dottty the com) (if ur innerested)


there r like 8-9 authors as of now...all very different

Anonymous said...

http://samehat.tumblr.com/post/2558651111/666-hell-2010-mix

Dif Anon said...

@Anon

rad spam, nice mix, thx

NY Post said...

c.bren drops controversial f-bomb comment on pizza-themed bj gif post

[click name 2b scandalizzzed]

bill said...

just opened this up at work and now i just got fired.

no joke.

Anonymous said...

@bill
i lol'd anyway

EFF JEW said...

@NY Post


Yeah right

NY Post said...

@Anti-Semite

oh you doubt that i represent the New York Post investigative team?

i feel bad for you.

Anonymous said...

I'm trying to make being an angry feminist really cool

Anonymous said...

nothing cooler than racism

Karma Police said...

so if you're going to get robbed, at least they'll go for your jugular!

Liar judas said...

racism is hella ironic

Thought Process said...

Have been thinking a lot lately about how to represent interesting links and 'linking events' in different media and platforms.

A lot of the best internet seems to occur when links (within an article, as someone's url for their commenter identity, as images, etc.) don't act the way they're supposed to but instead lead one astray or to a page or idea that relates in an unexpected and newly vibrant way. For now, I cannot think of a better way to express this kind of experience other than continuously recreating it and exaggerating or expanding its properties as they already are.

We can easily say that a Felix Gonzalez-Torres take-away piece involving free candy may embody ideas referring to loss, rupture, death, disintegration, the multiplicity of voices, collectivism, and other seemingly ineffable abstractions or fleeting experiences. Given that fact, I wonder if there are parallel ways to represent the infinite possibilities of the link, either online or in material form.

Or has meta-fiction already mined this territory and are these ideas a relatively dry well?

Thought Process said...

Have been thinking a lot lately about how to best represent interesting linking or the 'discontinuous surf' in totally different formats and platforms.

It seems like the best internet often occurs when links (within an article, as a commenter's url, as an image, etc.) do not behave as expected but instead lead us astray to exciting new places or suggest unconsidered connections.

We can view a Felix Gonzalez-Torres take-away art work involving free candy as embodying ideas like rupture, disintegration, death, eternity, a multiplicity of voices, collective experience, and other such ineffable abstractions or fleeting experiences. I wonder if there might be a parallel way to recreate the linking experience in an entirely different mode either online or in material form.

Or has meta-fiction already exhausted this phenomenon and are these ideas a relatively dry well?

Test said...

test

Test said...

test

test said...

test

Jason Overby said...

This is totally where I'm at right now - most of my work of late relates to this somewhat.  The idea of disjunction or the plasticity of symbols or unexpected or awkward relationships you can draw between things.  It relates to comics (though, incidentally, I'm feeling lately like I want to move away from comics, like the culture itself is a dead end), the idea of closure - separating temporal events and making the space between them more difficult.  You can alter the semiotic content of your representations by linking them with specific things.   It doesn't have to be ironic, just about complex relationships.  It also goes back to the koan - how the brain is made to do the work itself, connecting disparate ideas in ways that form larger patterns, gestalts that couldn't have been arrived at otherwise.

The web is a great place to explore serendipity.  Searching google can yield unexpected but helpful results in a way that mirrors how epiphanies work, that flood of insight from connections that were previously not seen.

I love building works that surprise me, visually or semantically - that kick is why I make things.

Jason Overby said...

Oops! I'm responding to a post that was deleted, I guess - not saying that racism is where I'm at!

L'_] said...

@Jason

Your racism is apparent in every panel you draw. But no, I posted that lengthy comment twice and it completely disappeared when I refreshed the page each time. I posted 2 more very brief 'test' comments and the same thing happened. Weeeeeeeird.

But yeah, totally feel ya. I think irony has become an overly constrictive term for anything remotely resembling a non sequitur, including many sequiturs that may seem mildly discontinuous but which have been thematized and used up many times already. I guess this is why our era is post-(post- ?) irony. So meaningless..

Thought Process / Last Attempt said...

Have been thinking a lot lately about how to best represent interesting linking or the 'discontinuous surf' in totally different formats and platforms.

It seems like the best internet often occurs when links (within an article, as a commenter's url, as an image, etc.) do not behave as expected but instead lead us astray to exciting new places or suggest unconsidered connections. We can view a Felix Gonzalez-Torres take-away art work involving free candy as embodying ideas like rupture, disintegration, death, eternity, a multiplicity of voices, collective experience, and other such ineffable abstractions or fleeting experiences. I wonder if there might be a parallel way to recreate the linking experience in an entirely different mode either online or in material form.

Or has meta-fiction already exhausted this phenomenon and are these ideas a relatively dry well ?

update said...

cool. it happened again. my commenting ability is haunted.

Jason Overby said...

Posting this for not-me:
Thought Process

"Have been thinking a lot lately about how to best represent interesting linking or the 'discontinuous surf' in totally different formats and platforms.

It seems like the best internet often occurs when links (within an article, as a commenter's url, as an image, etc.) do not behave as expected but instead lead us astray to exciting new places or suggest unconsidered connections. We can view a Felix Gonzalez-Torres take-away art work involving free candy as embodying ideas like rupture, disintegration, death, eternity, a multiplicity of voices, collective experience, and other such ineffable abstractions or fleeting experiences.  I wonder if there might be a parallel way to recreate the linking experience in an entirely different mode either online or in material form. 

Or has meta-fiction already exhausted this phenomenon and are these ideas a relatively dry well?"

Anonymous said...

dry, well ...

Anonymous said...

In my mind, the critical remarks about art comics hurried back to older conceptions of text instead of looking at the structural, socio-political reasons for art comics' loss of coolness. Jason Overby, it can be argued, celebrated the downfall with the same rhetoric as art comics' appearance; a rephlex which, even on a cursory glance, looks like a market mechanism of ‘hype.’

This is not to ‘unmask’ art comics works as not having the potential of being the tools for resistance that they seemed to be: Instead, both the older celebratory and Jason Overby's recent gloomy rhetoric about art comics are part of the same logic of capitalist hype.

erin wo said...

T.M.I.

erin wo said...

T.M.I.

y2k2000 said...

in the future, comics are going to "emphasize the surface and object-ness of the page" and books are going to come on cd-roms and have embedded quicktime movies to "recreate the linking experience"

satan said...

rename blog to "dead futurism" pls

your dead said...

When applied to new media studies, this means that the feedback loop from the new media object (such as the interface of Netscape 7 or an authoritative hypertext CD-ROM) to socio-political reality has to be scrutinized alongside with the code in order to see how we present reality to ourselves numerically encoded through the GUI.

Sounds like the 90s said...

our past...and maybe...maybe...our future...

PAWS OFF MY MANGA! said...

The benefit of a formal, political analysis is that it won’t automatically lead to the theoretical dead-end for new media or cultural studies of seeing opposition as only preparing another underground trend for the multinationals to recycle in their next campaign.

Multi User Shared Halucination said...

Chatpatey was so so so Piro :-)

non serviam said...

Like physical space, the cyberspace do have objects like files, mail, messages, graphics, images, videos etc with various modes of inward and outward that plays a vital role to form a ‘consensual hallucination’. We can change water into solid, solids to fluid and can create inanimate objects with an own existence of their own. In reality, in the cyberspace we people move in another world where we can invent anything through the significance of our mind. But still it is tough to react on some questions that, does cyberspace exist? If it exists then when and where do we go there? What is our identity in that community and who is the master of it?

Anonymous said...

One such fake CF displays as "TRANSCEND SCSI Disk Device" instead, clearly a rebadged CF from Transcend CF card. Why REBADGING? The answer is HIGH PROFIT.

ooo said...

o ooo o

Jason Overby said...

@cbren:

good one

funky cold medina said...

WTF?

BARCODE NECK TATTOO said...

VIDEO KILLED THE RADIO STAR........WTAT'S GOING TO KILL.....THE VIDEO STAR......??????? - Jason Overby

@OOO said...

Fashion photography is shitty

the future is 30 years old said...

the totality of the Web turns into one single page out of AOL’s content

Bluey Laber Dozlen said...

Because comics promise - however often deceptively - to make coherent sense, it becomes the reader's responsibility to try to hold it to that promise and catch it when it reneges. Moulthrop claims that "[b]reakdowns always teach us something" ("Traveling" 73). But abstract comics don't break down: they are broken to begin with. Reading them is less like driving in the breakdown lane than wandering the wrecking yard. The argument that abstract comics" usefully "reify" the interactivity of reading begs a question: if comics aren't fixed to begin with, why break them?

John Barton Wolgamot said...

Anna Karenina

John Bentley Mays said...

The spiral stair

Anonymous said...

CF = Apples
Blaise larmee = Micro$sjoft

Anonymous said...

..you break them to make new parts to form new wholes to be broken apart in different ways so that new wholes can be formed so that freshly unexpected breakdowns occur so that the construction of different wholes will happen so that someone feels like tearing down those wholes into different segments that might comprise a different greater sum total..

techno fascist said...

In a nutshell, Bolter argues in the book that the hypertextual “writing space becomes a metaphor (…) for the human mind” ...The concept of the human mind that lies behind such a statement is, of course, the fragmentary and associative structure that comes close to ‘postmodernist’ visions, or to what Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari call the ‘rhizome’ in their A Thousand Plateaus. In fact, Bolter explicitly equates nature and technology when he says that “the book of nature is a hypertext”—his argument here is in line with the still fashionable conception of the human mind as a computer ... In one of many insightful passages, [John Bentley] Mays speaks of the depressive patient's fascination and even reverence of suicide, comparing the depressive mind to the totalitarian state and “ … its ultimate power over us: the right to judicial murder. Suicide is capital punishment under another name” ...

Anonymous said...

@10:16 AM anon, we need to focus analysis on the political reality of these different forms of production in order to make any sense of them (which is why i like that marxist hypertext article). this exaltation of the fragment is very well adapted to capitalism. (adapted by capitalism). fragmentation works for capitalism because it prevents radicals from articulating an alternative to capitalism.i would argue for more coherence, not less. in all kinds of radical circles, aesthetic, political, academic, you can find this exaltation of the fragment as radical, it is a very popular idea at the moment, but i don't think we can continue in that direction, i think we need to find something else!!!

eiffel 65 said...

we need to articulate and understand the history and context for the things which are around us, and create work that coherently articulates its own context and relationship to a personal history of artwork, without accepting the dominant histories of art and culture and politics that have been determined by capitalism. i'm arguing for a multiplicity of voices and perspectives, which i guess is related to fragmentation. i'm not arguing for a singular narrative or history in that sense of coherence or unity. however, i think that individuals and communities of artists need to struggle towards coherence, rather than buying into this glorification of fragmentation and incoherence, because fragmentation is something that is branded and sold by capitalism. i am opposed to this ubiquitous glorification of aesthetics related to the internet because it completely ignores the actual injustices of the internet and the social and political reality in which the internet exists. i.e., your discourse is failing, because you're not able to analyze the wider context of the thing you're participating in, you can only see it from the inside. the internet is inherently capitalist and as such it is irrelevant to create work that relates solely to the internet, insofar as the relevance of artmaking is defined by its capacity for radical change.

boringi said...

for 'change' read 'resistance' because i don't mean for my language to unconsciously buy into the capitalist fixation on novelty

Anonymous said...

for another example besides hypertext for why these self-consciously fragmentary or modular forms of production fail and become very dated with time, i would look at psychic tv's "electric newspaper" series. remix culture exists and is relevant, but if you're trying to build the concept of the remix into your artwork in order to anticipate it and contain it within some kind of authoritative and self-contained art object, then the whole thing becomes stupid. same thing with hypertext trying to build the fragmentations of the internet, etc. into the form of an art object. there's no need for an 'authoritative' version of such a fragmentary object when the internet already does that on its own.

Ioool + cosco tm said...

@Thought Process

I feel you. I do not in any way think the hypertext is the only way to represent the experience of leaping through net chasms between fragmented elements as demarcated by links. It is a form that anticipated and grew up with them but has been outlived.

I'm bummed we're fixated on the hypertext. Shouldn't we be looking for new options? Or paying attention to content again as much as it's connective tissue?

I think this idea that hyperfiction somehow sufficiently (or excessively) took over the role of the reader in terms of anticipating narrative gaps that may have rewarded the reader's due diligence in older forms...may be partly hindering our progress in establishing new narratives.

Isn't it just as possible that hyperfiction gave the reader new opportunities to build wholes out of fragmentary parts and to perhaps simultaneously find new gaps within gaps?

in teh futur: gappier gaps, wholer wholes

sell books said...

sell books

Anonymous said...

i'm fixated on hypertext because i think there's a strong futurist bent to this discourse and we need to look at examples to understand the problems with futurism and the reason previous futurisms have failed. there was a really ridiculous utopian rhetoric surrounding hypertext at the time that was popular, which seems very dated now, that was part of whole utopian/dystopian rhetoric surrounding technology at that time. that rhetoric has changed, and Wired magazine for example feels very dated now, but futurist rhetoric about the internet (whether positive or negative) continues to persist. On this blog there is a peculiar brand of techno-futurism (vague but mostly optimistic) which coincides with a general pessimistic futurism about art and culture ("culture is a dead end", "comics are obsolete", etc.) This is symptomatic of a discourse that is failing to understand the wider context of the culture it is participating in and can only articulate things in the terms of capitalist hype. In hype, things are either rising, or falling, but it doesn't get more complicated than that and there is an inability to understand history and context, and what the popularity of certain things really says about our culture.

Sell Out Manifesto said...

I'm not sure that radicals really have more to offer post-capitalist society than acting as bitter/hypocritical scouts on the extreme front lines of culture extortion. The more aggressive, critical, and negating their practice, and the more consistent and powerful their voice, the greater possibility that the mainstream of culture (if that's still a useful term) will eventually have to absorb new forms of self-loathing to survive.

So far, capitalist culture seems perfectly happy and willing to absorb this 'radical bad will' and repurpose it as guilt, self-destruction, irony, glamorized sado-masichism, and so forth. That may not have been the original intent of cultural critics, and it may be an 'unfair analysis' of their work, but Lady Gaga is as much a product of patriarchy and material excess as she is of post-ironic hyper-jadeded nihilism and an overly paranoid mistrust of the government and technology.

Radicals' position is always one of negation, which is why they can't contribute very much besides either selling-out due to exhaustion and inevitably feeding into the disenchantment necessary to produce desire for more commercial distractions /or/ potentially succeeding and producing anarchy or new (possibly worse) totalitarianisms, given that they have no inspiring tradition, history, or common theme to draw from besides that of the angry victim.

On the other hand, I do think radicals can positively influence reformers, who might be able to get things done.

That being said, my personal heroes are those who attempt to invest a corrupted world with believable naivety, a light touch, a sense of wonder, and a presexual mystery. I realize this may sound like a retrogressive anti-intellectual fantasy.

That is the correct read. What can I say? I'm only ∞.

A Dealer Wants to No said...

@hypertext enthusiast

where is the paul noble of cyberspace, amirite?

Jason Overby said...

I'm pretty much only interested in art as an ongoing fashion enterprise, and I can't get it right!

Hypertext is just a word. So is juxtaposition. The idea of putting unlike things next to each other to create a new thing or idea seems pretty old to me.

Anonymous said...

maybe a little reductionist JO..

blaise said...

@10:26 AM anon

nice thoughts. this may be related:

'Because culture is constantly adapting it is inevitable that what was once provoking can later be turned Pop. But while culture may be in flux, the tenets of capitalism are not.'

it does seem interesting to try to work outside the stream of culture/capitalism. but also impossible. just as i am born a US citizen i am also born a capitalist. i am born with very specific determining factors. in the binary between what i want and what is expected of me i can identify as trans or cis. i think the artist archetype doesn't care about what is expected of him. if he's supposed to be liberal, he will be fascist, supposed to be socialist he will be capitalist, etc. i think the artist as troll makes more sense. identities are temporarily adopted in order to troll others. even in your analogy: to be more coherent is a radical concept within a radical mainstream. i mean, 'what does that even mean'? it's a very fragmentary concept, isn't it?

blaise said...

reading the rest of the comments ... is japanese culture coherent?

what are white people said...

Top Seven Westerns
  
7. Dusk at Corrall

6. Billie Kid
  
5. Secret at the Mesa
  
4. Mystery of the Dust
  
3. Celine
  
2. Western Promises
  
1. O.K. Mesa at Dusk Corrall

Top 8 Crime-Dramas
  
8. Top List

7. Police Cruising
  
6. O.K. Hardy
  
5. Clasp
  
4. Streets of Beaumont
  
3. Dirty Crime
  
2. Think Violence Think
  
1. CrimeWave

Top Nine Comedies
  
9. Funny Dinner
  
8. Guess Who Is Here
  
7. We're In Here Together
  
6. I'm Alone
  
5. Living with Max Leeland
  
4. Breaking the Drawer
  
3. Touching
  
2. Crazy Dinner
  
1. Guess My Parents
 
Top Nine Action Movie
  
9. Secret Fury

8. Tops
  
7. Anger Brothers
  
6. Big Fight Next To Jungle!
  
5. Die Off
  
4. Hardback
  
3. Diamond Arrow
  
2. Piece Of
  
1. Fall

Top 5 Love Comedies
  
5. I'm In Love
  
4. Love With Her
  
3. You
  
2. Me
  
1. Let's Love

Top 5 Sci Fi Movies
  
4. The Deserts of Planet
  
3. Asteroid Fright!
  
2. The Alien Adventure
  
1. Mars Battle

Top Three Baby Films of 2006

3. Wanny
  
2. Wanny 2
  
1. Go All Babies
 
Top Five Horror Film of Ever!!!!!
  
5. The Whistling Crypt
  
4. Evil Fate
  
3. Face Your Fright
  
2. Never Die!!!
  
1. Horror

Best 2 War Movies (Last 50 years! ]
  
2. Battle at Big Gulch

1. World War

5 Best Ever SLASHER Horror movies (80s-to-90)
  
5. Night Camp
  
4. Unwelcome Guest
  
3. Evil Phone

2. Night Camp 2
  
1. Don't Get In The Pickup!

Best 1970 PORNO Films (71-78)
  
5. Touch the bus
  
4. Hot Rags
  
3. Raggin'
  
2. Kill or Fuck

1. Violet Stumps presents: Summer at Wild Passion
  
top 7 ancient history movies
  
7. Rome
  
6. Greece
  
5. Five romans
  
4. Roman Greece
  
3. Persian
  
2. Rome
  
1. Greece Rome

Top 7 Spy Movies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  
7. Spy Flight
  
6. Agent Of Glass
  
5. Diamond Eyes
  
4. The Last Man
  
3. Spy Flight 2

2. Secret Agent
  
1. What's In The Box?

Anonymous said...

what the fuck does lady gaga have to do with anything

Anonymous said...

Top 10 Lady Gaga Movies
10. Living with Lady Gaga
9. Gaga in Rome
8. I like Lady Gaga 2
7. Going Gaga
6. Return To Hell
5. DEath World for lady gaga
4. Lady gaga is dead
3. Kill her
2. She is dead
1. Return to Lady Gaga

Angie said...

All radical activity is the same thing, and is the same thing as capitalism. To prove this, take for example, Lady Gaga, a proven radical and the first thing that I think of when I think of the word radical. Well, you may be surprised to know this, but Lady Gaga is a capitalism and she also wear furs. Therefore, all radical analysis is meaningless and we should talk about rday gaga.

The castole of otrantofuck said...

Radicals' position is always one of negation. For example, I read a wikipedia page once about something, and I thought that it was negative. Also, no anartchist has ever made for art, for example Leo Tolstoy, John Cage, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, and Mark Rothko, are all anarchists, and obviously have never made any contributions to art. Plus, feminists are yelling at me all the time. Plus, how could you say that anything means anything, since everything is just words???? therefore, lady gaga

Comedy Hour said...

thanks. i had an especially poopy night. now i feel better. sort of

MY INNER ASSHOLE said...

Anarchism, Capitolism and all thosr are ifeals that dpnt corredpond to the reAl world. Lpok to individual instancrs and dontv put tgem under umbrella terms. Why do yyou habe to participate in capitolism? Cant you give away your art or the information that comprises it? Whst i really want to knowcis whi give a fuck about ethics? How does it help you? If capitolism doesnt help either then fuck that two. You default to the moraliry of binaey capitil/marxism, but how does that relate tO what you're actusllt doing?

@blaise said...

japanese coherence

Anonymous said...

read the marxist analysis of hypertext for a helpful example of how political analysis can actually be very helpful and constructive for understanding the wider context of art movements. it's not a morality thing

Blaise said...

what r asn ppl?

Anonymous said...

Here are some quotes from this thread "nothing has an absolute value", "culture has become a joke", "at one time Art was something that mattered", "nobody really cares anymore", "a society based on a completely meaningless and valueless currency", "Why am I doing this? What does it mean? What is the purpose?, "When I refer to "my morality" or "my philosophy" internally I am thinking about something already decided that may or not have anything to do with how I feel right now." What the fuck are these people talking about?

Well, it's not really clear. Statements like these are extremely totalizing, but they have a certain force of gloomy pessimistic futurism that can throw dirt over everything (like throwing dirt in a tomb because you're in the graveyard, of the culture which has become a dumb stupid ghost.)

Anonymous said...

In other parts of the thread, the same people make some more specific statements about art when they are drawing distinctions between comics and fine art. I'm interested in going in this direction, since it seems there is much more specifically to be said there, but what prevents this kind of distinction from being completely arbitrary? After all, if we are only talking about aesthetic differences, there is no really solid separation between these disciplines; both are 'art', and 'art' is pretty good at swallowing everything up. As a matter of fact, the dread and disappointment expressed about the art industry is very relevant here, because as long as we continue talking about 'art', and trying to define what 'art' is on these aesthetic grounds, it keeps coming back to the dominant narrative of art that has already been established by the art industry. The disappointment that people are expressing about that industry seems reason enough to me to try to get away it. It's a void that keeps swallowing up the discourse, so that it gets nowhere. In order to establish the discourse on firmer ground, we need to give a shape to that void, and understand its social context, so that it will no longer have the same power to delegimatize and destabilize our conversation. After all, it's not benefiting any of us.

Anonymous said...

There may be many other ways to do this, but I think that coming to the understanding that there are different kinds of artistic production, which may be very separate and distinct to each other because of the way they work in the world, socially and economically, may help us to reject the dominant narrative of art which is completely exhausted, to which nothing can any longer be added. In other words, understanding what we are doing as a form of production, not as an aesthetic form—what it does, not what it is like. This isn't a question that's supposed to be answered immediately, and separate everything forever into two categories, or something like that. Rather, I think it's a question that we continually ask ourselves as we are making art, and helps us to understand the purpose and meaning of what we are doing. Maybe we can form a different society, besides the one that is "based on a completely meaningless and valueless currency." I think that we're sort of doing it already... after all, I think that ideas are much more in currency than dead capital in comics since there isn't a lot of money to be made, but people still put a lot of labor and ideas into their production. I'm trying to avoid using utopian language here because I just want to emphasize that there different kinds of production possible, and each of us probably participates in all of them, to some extent, and that comics culture or any culture as a whole isn't defined by one kind of production. However, I think that comics culture as a marginalized art culture has totally different potential and possibility from the mainstream art industry, and I wanted to suggest that it need not all be flat and the same thing, and that we can understand there to be differences between different modes of production, some which might participate in a system that is meaningless and harmful, and others in a system which generates lots of meaning.

MY INNER POSITIVE ONTOLOGICAL CONSTRUCT said...

@anom 11:07

Ok, but wjat is a movemenr? How does it cohere?

@ other anon

Yoiu said:

"Statements like these are extremely totalizing, but they have a certain force of gloomy pessimistic futurism that can throw dirt over everything (like throwing dirt in a tomb because you're in the graveyard, of the culture which has become a dumb stupid ghost.) "

Why is this gloomy? Ans why is itvtotalizing? Nothing "matters," right? But that's cool. It means more frewdom

I guess i feel similarly cobflicted avout art and comics. Neither are very ofteb spraking to me about thibgs thar relate to my lifw. Rovits and monsters or formal explorarions of hrecursive modalities vis a via giant dildoes. Tolatoy is pretty good, de Kooning is pretty good, Chester Brown is pretty goid. Most Other stuff is candy either for my rt or lft brain. Which is ok, but candy

"dominant narrative of art which is completely exhausted"

This is the fashion thing. How do we avoid relating or not-relating what we are doing to the dominant narrative of art? How to make great things?

"However, I think that comics culture as a marginalized art culture has totally different potential and possibility from the mainstream art industry"

What is this possibility? Purely aesthetic? Wwhat are non-relatove values? Serious ???????

Dialog as Architecture said...

Art as the mainstream of art history involving a network of commercial galleries, public institutions, auction houses, art schools, critical and and research-based publications, peopled by academics, artists, collectors, dealers, administrators, enthusiasts, and laborers

Art as a colloquial term for human creative production in general

Art as self-conscious reaction to the debased world of mainstream 'Art'

Art as a romantic ideal

Art as disappointment

Art as cultural critique

Art as entertainment

Art as domination

Art as incredibly boring

Art as physics

Art as mythology

Comics as art

Art as consciousness

Art as shifting boundaries of thought

..

Discussion as the End and not the Means

Anonymous Reblog said...

In other parts of the thread, the same people make some more specific statements about art when they are drawing distinctions between comics and fine art. I'm interested in going in this direction, since it seems there is much more specifically to be said there, but what prevents this kind of distinction from being completely arbitrary? After all, if we are only talking about aesthetic differences, there is no really solid separation between these disciplines; both are 'art', and 'art' is pretty good at swallowing everything up. As a matter of fact, the dread and disappointment expressed about the art industry is very relevant here, because as long as we continue talking about 'art', and trying to def

Anonymous said...

stop art

Anonymous said...

@c.bren

ok

Anonymous said...

it's a bad category which by continuing to discuss you allow yourself to be subsumed into a system which trades on the generation of bogus value through the ongoing meaningless definition of 'art'. Plenty of people convince themselves that by perpetuating this system (the generation of hype) they will benefit in some way and the people responsible for this blog have pretty much admitted that it is a hype machine and also all seem to identify as capitalists, which makes them the ones who recieve the 'profits' (not even money, just meaningless "cultural capital" [the capital of 'cool']). But keep in mind that whatever measly returns you get from participating in this discussion are outweighed by the overwhelming burden of meaninglessness that it gives back to you, which you won't stop complaining about, and is a direct result of capitalism, "which, vampire-like, lives only by sucking living tumblr, and lives the more, the more flickr it sucks"

Skittles said...

Taste the Rainbow






*my word verification is 'guilt' / no joke / omg rofl so hard / i am in heaven right now

Evidence said...

^Not even kidding^

Jason Overby said...

anon reblog

lol & right on

i deserve a skittle said...

please give me a skittle

meme me said...

A CF imitation can be produced by anybody-a Russian serf, a French peasant or an English capitalist

Goth99 said...

minespaw

shrek 4ever after said...

narratives are never exhausted

blaise said...

comment from yesterday:



@10:26 AM anon

nice thoughts. this may be related:

'Because culture is constantly adapting it is inevitable that what was once provoking can later be turned Pop. But while culture may be in flux, the tenets of capitalism are not.'

it does seem interesting to try to work outside the stream of culture/capitalism. but also impossible. just as i am born a US citizen i am also born a capitalist. i am born with very specific determining factors. in the binary between what i want and what is expected of me i can identify as trans or cis. i think the artist archetype doesn't care about what is expected of him. if he's supposed to be liberal, he will be fascist, supposed to be socialist he will be capitalist, etc. i think the artist as troll makes more sense. identities are temporarily adopted in order to troll others.

blahs said...

also, still not sure what you mean by coherence ... can you relink the marxist essay?

Anonymous said...

http://dichtung-digital.mewi.unibas.ch/2003/issue/1/ziegler/

that seems like a pretty silly/fruitless definition of the artist to me, but i do see it in play a lot, plenty of artists may choose to opt out of all categories when talking about themselves (bela tarr says "i am not a film maker" "i don't know what film making is.") but i think that identity is mostly besides the point; to use your example i don't think that you are born a capitalist just by virtue of being born anywhere because in order to be a capitalist you have to actually participate in capitalism, it's not an essential category. this is why i think it's helpful to center production, the thing you are producing and what that thing itself produces, instead of identity, when talking about art.

Anonymous said...

since there's already more than enough identity to go around, if the main effect of what you're doing is to produce more of it (more 'artistic personas') then there's something wrong there... there's more than enough talk, too, so let's destroy the idea of "Discussion as the End and not the Means"... it's a big hole sucking up your energy... time to move on to something better

Anonymous said...

@something better

like what?
marxist critique?

Anonymous said...

i like being sucked into a big hole #fyi

Anonymous said...

Well Maybe I like beating my head against the wall!!! Did Ya ever think about that before you went around offering Free Advice Ms Do Gooder, didn't you ever stop to think that I might actually want to beat my against the wall until I am dead

but r u happy? said...

U alone know the truth. What is it worth?

Anonymous said...

weird

Austin English said...

had to put this somewhere:

a week or two ago i saw two swedes walking down the street and pausing at a poster announcing jerry seinfelds upcoming apperance at some huge arena. they were like 'oooooohhh!!! jerry kommar!'